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The Ancient Empires of Anaria
09-18-2018, 10:45 AM
Post: #1
The Ancient Empires of Anaria
In our recent discussion of the Continents of Gotha, the topic of Anarian history has come up - particularly the interplay between the various empires that have existed during the last three thousand years. This thread is to discuss these topics.

For context and the earlier discussion, please see the Continents of Gotha thread.


First order of business is establishing the relationships and dates (and any further details) of the Orkanan Realm, the Dragar Monopoly, an as yet undefined Parnethi Empire, and the Stoldavian successor Empires.

(09-16-2018 05:33 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  [The Orkanan Realm] predated the Dragar which was a Romanche-esque alliance of trading cities and kingdoms with it's heartlands in Pastana and spread across the Northern Seaboard of Anaria. We could then apply our Parnethi Empire proposal here as a backdrop to the rise of the Monopoly which is of Greek culture and spread ever-eastward into Anaria. It could have been contemporary with the Orkanan Realm and in conflict with it with one being a contributing factor to the fall of the other.

I'm a tad confused as to what you're proposing, apologies. Are you suggesting that the Parnethi Empire expanded eastwards and turned into the Dragar Monopoly in the east? Also, the Dragar Monopoly wasn't of Greek culture, it was Latin (ancient Pastanan). This is important for the dissemination of the Romance languages (Dragar languages) across Northern Anaria Major during this time.

(09-16-2018 05:33 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  Give us some dates Alex, we go from there.

As for dates, the Dragar Monopoly has currently been pencilled in as existing between 5889 - 6315 with the Orkanan Realm existing between 5091 - 5713. For the purposes of creating friction and a narrative of rise and fall, perhaps we should bring the Dragar Monopoly back a century or so? I would personally prefer a bit of overlap, as Empires don't tend to collapse and rise simultaneously, but peter out ingloriously and rise over time. So, looking at the timeframes, perhaps our Parnethi Empire should exist at the same time as the Orkanan Realm - being its main rival in the west of the continent?

We also need to factor in the Migration Period into the fall of the Orkanan Realm (and thus the rise of the Monopoly). Perhaps Pastanan speaking people also migrated during this period? Setting up 'colonies' around Northern Anaria Major and southern Stoldavia, spreading their language and establishing a web of connected city-states (much like the later Skara Samverkan).

(09-17-2018 03:42 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  About Orkanan in Anisora, if Dragar did NOT take over Orkanan as a religion, it would be quite the narrative to explain how Anisora became Peratolian Orkanan. Anisora seems a bit of a reformationist type of state, claiming to be an empire with roots way way back, having redefined history quite a bit to fit the purpose of the ruling class. It must have had some Orkanan presence before the Greater Stoldavic Empire popped up, otherwise there wouldn't have been enough ground for an Orkanan claim here. If my quick and dirty formulation makes sense here.

I pencilled in Orkanan spreading to Anisora (Pastana in the east) during the mid-sixth millennium, around 5600. Missionaries from the Orkanan Realm? Exemplar Depellorrion was an attempt at creating the myth of the foundation of Orkanan in Pastana, but it is shrouded in propaganda and nationalism. I in fact want it to be a lot messier. So perhaps the Dragar Monopoly did "take over Orkanan as a religion", and was potentially even a major exporter of the religion elsewhere. Nevertheless, by the time the Dragar Monopoly is on the rise, I want Orkanan to be established more or less in Anisora (including in Casella in the west, although maybe mostly on the coast). It makes the most sense for Orkanan to have been established at least in Pastana before it rose to be a major power.

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09-18-2018, 04:19 PM
Post: #2
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
(09-18-2018 10:45 AM)August Dux Wrote:  I'm a tad confused as to what you're proposing, apologies. Are you suggesting that the Parnethi Empire expanded eastwards and turned into the Dragar Monopoly in the east? Also, the Dragar Monopoly wasn't of Greek culture, it was Latin (ancient Pastanan). This is important for the dissemination of the Romance languages (Dragar languages) across Northern Anaria Major during this time.

Yes sort of. The Parnethi began their expansion from Anaria Minor, which it's possible was dominated by Parnethi culture at the time. From here it has two initial routes of Eastward expansion, the first along the North towards Pastana and along the South which could have taken them as far as Adhem with ease. I think the Parnethi should have a big technologically advanced empire which occupied most of Anaria Major, in particular what would become the Romanche and Slavic linguistic areas. The goal of this empire after all is to justify Parnethi/Greek influences in modern Anarian languages. Due to the size of the Empire it would become highly multi-cultural and shift towards a prominance of Romanche.

I explained a bit more about the transition between the two civilisations here:
(09-04-2018 11:54 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  Maybe it's (the Parnethi) Imperial Dynasty falls or it suffers a string of poor Emperors and the regions take advantage with the Dragr nations lead by Pastana accumulating greater mercantile influence over the Empire's economic affairs and EIC style, eventually toppling it and establishing the Dragr Monopoly.

So what we've got is a 'Time of Chaos' around 5800 RH near when the Orkanan Realm and Parnethi Empire are supposed to have collapsed to armies of migrating Barbarians. Much of the previous hierarchies and structures mostly based around trade and commerce survive this though and consolidate under the Dragar Monopoly. That sounds alright but can you tell me who were these migrants and where did they come from? Were they Germanic, Celtic, Ugric, Caucasian?
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09-18-2018, 04:40 PM (This post was last modified: 09-18-2018 04:40 PM by TeamBattleaxe.)
Post: #3
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
Quote:I pencilled in Orkanan spreading to Anisora (Pastana in the east) during the mid-sixth millennium, around 5600. Missionaries from the Orkanan Realm? Exemplar Depellorrion was an attempt at creating the myth of the foundation of Orkanan in Pastana, but it is shrouded in propaganda and nationalism. I in fact want it to be a lot messier. So perhaps the Dragar Monopoly did "take over Orkanan as a religion", and was potentially even a major exporter of the religion elsewhere. Nevertheless, by the time the Dragar Monopoly is on the rise, I want Orkanan to be established more or less in Anisora (including in Casella in the west, although maybe mostly on the coast). It makes the most sense for Orkanan to have been established at least in Pastana before it rose to be a major power.

Mmm, so at around 5600 RH, Pastana according to my suggestion would still be under Parnethi hegemony though it would be declining in power and depending on how threatened by Orkanan the Parnethi feel it could seep in through missionary work. However, this would be quality role-play it there weren't those tensions between the OR and PE which would mean the Parnethi would consider Orkanan subversive. This is highly likely. Indeed empires like these fall for multiple reasons rather than just one. You've the rising commercial power of Dragar city states, rising corruption, cultural tensions and then these religious tensions which could knock the Parnethi over the edge. I'm certainly a fan of the idea that the rise of the Monopoly is, if only for pragmatic reasons, due to the expanding Orkanan religion.

With the fall of the OR, Pastana could then become the new centre of the religion for a time due to it's defensiveness as a peninsula and receive a large amount of money and favour from offering asylum to Orkanan clergy. Lets assume Pastana was previously a rather secular or informal pagan state prior to this. Now I'd like to discuss the faith of the Parnethi which may or may not still be practised in the Gotha at present but would certainly have left a legacy. Can't have been Izha cause that seems like a relatively new religion. The most credible candidate from Gotha's preset seems to be Sadarisnism which is an elemental religion still practised in Southern Anaria and could've been the pre-existing pagan creed of Anaria. It could be that this religion was already widespread before the Parnethi or they help spread it. I actually prefer the Parnethi religion being a cult within a greater Sadarisnist cultural area.
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09-18-2018, 05:11 PM (This post was last modified: 09-18-2018 05:15 PM by TeamBattleaxe.)
Post: #4
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
https://imgur.com/a/l6DHGeg

The Parnethian Empire at her apogee c.XXXX

Just a suggestion of mine. The darker shade is her core territories while the lighter shades are heavily influenced by the Empire and/or under occupation. Many of these areas were actively contested by the Orkanan Realm and the lands in Tharna were contested with Old Maphuria.

Remember before you eek at the size of the Empire that it is an Imperium in the spirit of Persia or Rome and one of the greatest civilisations of Gothan Antiquity. The Empire should have a life span of at least 400 years and possibly begin with a great conquering hero who founds a dynasty which manages to last for most of the Empire's history.
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09-18-2018, 07:42 PM
Post: #5
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
Just shooting from the sidelines here...

What if... we squeeze in the Parnethian between the O'Realm and Dragar? There's already a 150 year gap in between, so if we overlap it with a century on both sides then we have a workable timeframe and lots of friction. But I have no idea how that would match with established events, I'm a bit out of touch with the details.

If we go for the barbarian option, I would like to nominate the 'Celts' / Thultannians. Not the 'Germanic' since the O'Realm was Germanic...

Size of the Parnethian: why not... LOL

VITTMARK:"This mess is a place." --- FISKS:"Fisk you!"
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09-18-2018, 08:29 PM
Post: #6
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
(09-18-2018 07:42 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  Just shooting from the sidelines here...

What if... we squeeze in the Parnethian between the O'Realm and Dragar? There's already a 150 year gap in between, so if we overlap it with a century on both sides then we have a workable timeframe and lots of friction. But I have no idea how that would match with established events, I'm a bit out of touch with the details.

My idea was that the PE and OR were contemporary rivals and collapsed at similar times with Pastana rising in importance in the region and as a centre for the Orkanan religion. Also Auresia is mixed up in this and could be achieving its imperial status in the vacuum.

(09-18-2018 07:42 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  If we go for the barbarian option, I would like to nominate the 'Celts' / Thultannians. Not the 'Germanic' since the O'Realm was Germanic...

In the wiki it says the Equatae peoples were responsible from the migrations and originated in Central Anaria. They seem to be Romanche but that makes little sense as we kind of need Dragar speakers already in Pastana and northern Anaria.

Celts could do it and explain Celtic influences in Dragar languages though again this is a stretch I think. I actually think the geography of Anaria doesn't lend itself to migrations like the ones that destroyed Rome. West Davai seems a better candidate for an event like that! Anaria has straits on all sides and I don't believe it has any large tracts of flat, open steppe so you won't be getting horse nomads or the such forming here and if you start in Davai you're putting your horses on a boat.... I suggest we look at another way the ancient Anarian civilisations could have collapsed. Not to say migrations can't happen but they likely were not sizeable enough to bring down an empire.

I feel like an great opportunity for the Wolgos could be missed here....
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09-18-2018, 09:55 PM
Post: #7
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
OK, so we clearly have a proposal that the Parnethi Empire was one of the greatest in Gothan history. That sounds good to me! At first I was a bit sceptical, but spreading the Empire that far might make a lot of sense. For one, it might explain how Gotha's equivalent of the Cyrillic alphabet was created/adopted in central Anaria Major, perhaps.

TeamBattleaxe Wrote:
Pepijn Wrote:What if... we squeeze in the Parnethian between the O'Realm and Dragar? There's already a 150 year gap in between, so if we overlap it with a century on both sides then we have a workable timeframe and lots of friction. But I have no idea how that would match with established events, I'm a bit out of touch with the details.

My idea was that the PE and OR were contemporary rivals and collapsed at similar times with Pastana rising in importance in the region and as a centre for the Orkanan religion.

Perhaps we could have the best of both worlds? The two Empires could have been contemporaneous, but the Dragar Monopoly could have risen in importance and expanded at a time when the Orkanan Realm and the Parnethi were fighting? Taken advantage of the chaos.

Maybe the Monopoly began as a sort of buffer zone between the two Empires. City states and the surrounding territories, a few petty kingdoms etc. granted independence for the benefit of reducing friction at the Empires' respective borders. But then, as the migrations, internal power struggles, revolts, whatever we want, took off and began to undermine the Empires, the states of the Monopoly, with Pastana slap bang in the middle able to assert herself the most.

More and more small states begin to revolt and assert independence, or at least demand a form of autonomy, under the banner of the Dragar Monopoly. Perhaps desires to practice Orkanan freely played a part for those states under Parnethi control. Perhaps Pastana began drawing states into their Monopoly under their example of a relatively free, neutral state, which was able to practice their religion freely? Thus, when the OR collapses, who is left as the moral leader of Orkanan? Pastana and the Dragar Monopoly.

That could prove a neat reason for why the Monopoly spread as a trading/military/religious alliance confederation, rather than a simple imperial conquest. As more and more states joined, in supposed neutrality between the two Empires, the Monopoly emerged as a major power - and some years later, maybe the combined fleet of the Monopoly defeated one of the Empires, or a decisive land battle marked the beginning of the end for either Empire. Combined with migrations, internal revolts, etc. this could potentially work to the advantage of all narratives.

TeamBattleaxe Wrote:Also Auresia is mixed up in this and could be achieving its imperial status in the vacuum.

Your raise a good point. According to the Auresia page, the Auresian Empire was founded in 4466. And it has been in existence ever since then. We have a few options, all of which will ultimately be up to Tom to decide from.

We could have the Auresian Empire as a third power alongside the OR and the PE, potentially playing an early part in the buffer zone idea I described above - a reasonable sized power that was stuck in the middle of the two major Empires. Or, we could establish that the Parnethi attempted to invade Auresia, or a major war between them went poorly for the Parnethi and defined the limit of their incursion into Anaria Major? Or the Auresian Empire could have been a client state of the Parnethi Empire for a while and broke free when the internal disasters, migrations etc. started to happen. The difficulty comes with the fact that large swathes of Auresia should probably be included in the Dragar Monopoly at some point - for the point of linguistics (which is the whole point of the Monopoly). But that needs Tom's input.

I summon Tom, Eternal Emperor of Auresia!

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09-18-2018, 10:06 PM
Post: #8
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
In terms of migrations, interesting points have been raised.

TeamBattleaxe Wrote:
Pepijn Wrote:If we go for the barbarian option, I would like to nominate the 'Celts' / Thultannians. Not the 'Germanic' since the O'Realm was Germanic...

In the wiki it says the Equatae peoples were responsible from the migrations and originated in Central Anaria. They seem to be Romanche but that makes little sense as we kind of need Dragar speakers already in Pastana and northern Anaria.

I agree with Pep that Germanic peoples can't be the ones migrating, as the OR is Germanic. But James is right that the Equatae, by our reckoning of this era of history, would not be Romanesque peoples. However, I don't necessarily see that as a problem. The Dragar Monopoly was always meant to be the 'Romanisation' force in Anarian history, which brought the Romance languages to northern Anaria Major. The migrations may well have meant the end of the OR and the PE, and would undoubtedly have caused issues for the emerging Monopoly, but the Monopoly was only just getting started at that point. Over the next few hundreds years, that's when the languages were established etc. So I think it could still work.

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09-18-2018, 10:30 PM
Post: #9
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
(09-18-2018 09:55 PM)August Dux Wrote:  Perhaps we could have the best of both worlds? The two Empires could have been contemporaneous, but the Dragar Monopoly could have risen in importance and expanded at a time when the Orkanan Realm and the Parnethi were fighting? Taken advantage of the chaos.

Similar to the East India Company eh? An interesting idea, I like it. I'd say the the Dragar would be orientated towards undermining the Parnethi first and foremost and pragmatically adopted the Orkanan religion for that purpose. Maybe Auresia has a role on the fall of the Orkanan Realm or we could chuck Wolgos in there for a bit who then get repelled.
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09-18-2018, 10:47 PM (This post was last modified: 09-18-2018 10:48 PM by Morbius.)
Post: #10
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
Tom, by the grace of Vind the Highest, Dynast Sovereign of the Auresians, to the attentions of his most honourable and august colleagues and neighbors, health and greetings.

While a practical people, the Auresians would never submit themselves to being the client of another authority after having united their lands into a single state and carved their niche out of the continent (at that time). If anything, it's more likely the Auresians would have been a sort of third state buffering the other two. Likely, they would've developed a dangerous skill for playing the two powers off of each other for their own benefit.

That being said, I wouldn't rule out that the Auresians had to fight at least one war against the OR and the PE at some point in order to assert their wish that they remain independent of the direct influence of them both. Perhaps the Parnethi did attempt an invasion of Auresia, but were soundly stomped and sent packing, which somewhat broke them in their seeking to spread their influence further within Anaria Major. It is possible one of these conflicts presaged the taking by Auresia of territories once part of the Monopoly (or other states) that is now part of the Imperial demesne.

Just my five florins.

God save the....um, hm...ah! God save the Queen, yes! Smile
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