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Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
11-03-2019, 04:51 PM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2019 10:32 PM by jph2.)
Post: #1
Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
Note: Please see the refined territory request in post #10.

Greetings! Long time!

Hi. I’m Jerry Hurtgen, from metro Detroit. Some of y’all may remember me from the early days of Gotha and even some prior geofiction games. Finding that I have some free time and a need for some creative outlet, I’d like to get back into nation- and world-building.

I’d like to resurrect Sudety, which was located on northern Nester, just south of Stoldavia, at the eastern edge of Anaria, in 1098, 1099, 1101, and 1102. I would like to add 1103 since the geopolitical map indicates the impassible mountains make 1102 virtually unreachable from the rest of Sudety unless 1103 is part of Sudety. Without 1103, it’s not logical 1102 would be part of Sudety. Although 1102 could be dropped, Sudety’s already pretty small, so I’d rather add 1103. The original wiki pages on Sudety are still there. They’re pretty thin, but give a bit of a framework. That framework will need considerable fleshing out and I have some changes from the original concept that I think fit the more developed Gothan history.

Originally, Sudety used Czech as the real-world language, but I see the language maps reverted back to Nester being Germanic-speaking. Since the ethnic bleed of Dolmer peoples from Stoldavia to Nester is minimal and Nesterians are ethnic Brucht, I’d like to keep Czech if y’all agree. If the preference is for Sudety to speak a Germanic language, then I’d like to use Afrikaans to distinguish Sudety from Helreich’s language.

I’ve spent a lot of time looking at the historical and cultural backstory development that’s taken place since I was last involved. A lot focuses on central Anaria, Stoldavia, and the colonies, but Nester is almost entirely absent from all of that. So, the question is, why? Here’s my answer: think of Sudety as Switzerland on steroids: Sudetan banking houses and trading brokerages facilitate secret banking and trading between anyone, no questions asked.

With all the wars, colonialism, and trade, especially considering some flip-flopping of sides, in the 7300s, the rise of private banking houses and trading brokerages allowed any and all sides to safely store their money or make trades, even with the “enemy” without actually having to “deal with each other” face to face. With Sudety staying out of the frays, and with banking and trade secrecy, the country became trusted and was left alone.

It didn’t hurt that Sudety was always a minor power and is clearly far away from the power struggles and grand politics of central Anaria. Sudety’s position along the trade routes between Anaria and Attaia, as well as the Stoldovian and Settent Sea currents make it a good location for the trading brokerages. In addition, many nobles, perhaps largely minor or mid-level aristocrats, from most, if not all Anarian royal families, married with Sudetan nobility, so some Sudetan count or countess was somehow related to some other noble on each side of any of the many conflicts.

Although Sudety’s military is not very strong from a major powers perspective, it’s pretty proficient as a result of defending the homelands from the Wolgos slavers after the fall of the Orkanan Realm.
Did I mention Sudety’s neutrality and banking and trade services for all comers make it fertile for espionage not unlike Lisbon during World War II? Today, it seems to me Sudety, as a trade brokerage and with its private banks, might be a good place for facilitating exchanges between the Haverist economies and those of the rest of Gotha. As part of Anaria, the Sudety concept is Anaria-centric, but I’d be interested in plausible interactions with states across Gotha.

Sudetan history needs to be developed, but it would have been part of the Orkanan Realm. It would have been independent but on the fringes of the Dragar Monopoly since it didn't extend that far east. During this period, Sudety’s separate realms became a confederation and developed militarily to fend off the Wolgos. This capability, and being far from central Anaria, enabled Sudety to maintain its independence, perhaps fragiley, through the following empires.

Being so close to Stoldovia will keep Sudety closely tied, at least in trade, with the various powers there. The rise of Stellist-Orkanan and its declaration as the state religion in Helreich was supported by many Sudetan nobles but the banking and trade powerhouses saw this as a threat to the independence of their businesses. An upstart political party seized this as a concern for the Sudetan way of life and called for closing the gap between the haves (nobles) and have nots (ordinary Sudetans). As a result, the monarchy was deposed and the current structure of an Autokrat came into being. Today power is wielded by the Autokrat but the nobility still exists and trade associations, guilds, the military, and even the government bureaucracy itself all compete to some degree yet depend on each other to maintain the status quo. The Autokrat is also head of Orkanan in Sudety.

I would also like to reincarnate Sudruny, the Sudet colony in D’Runia at 5020, 5021, 5022, 5028, 5029, 5030, 5031. Simply put, during the age of colonialism, Sudety wanted to be like the big boys. On top of that, the Sudetan homeland has some significant resource shortages and this colonial holding helps relieve some of them. It also adds some luxury items for trade that Sudet can use to trade for those other resources it needs. Filling these resource gaps has always been the basis of Sudetan trade throughout its history. Another basis for the Sudetan colonies is the currents between Nester and northwest D’Runia make it a pretty easy route for Sudety. There was some discussion on the Sudruny concept back in the day, but I believe the presence of the wiki page means it was approved.

Sudety will be a bit dysptopian, with the banking and trading houses lending an aura of wealth and first worldliness. The central authority will keep things in check and some shortages that can’t be made up will be blamed on the colonies even though they’re not really a draw on the resources of the homelands. Life in Sudety will be somewhat similar to East Germany as a prototype. Life is good because we told you so.

Please let me know what feedback you have and what I need to do next to rejoin.

Jerry
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11-03-2019, 08:38 PM
Post: #2
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
Hey Jerry, welcome back to Gotha!

I'm Alex, an admin who is the owner of Anisora and arrived on the project after you left I think. So nice to virtually meet you. I'm happy to see you want to return, and I really like your rejigged concept for Sudety!

In terms of the territories, I don't see any reason not to incorporate 1103 - like you say, the mountains make that addition necessary. As for the colony of Sudruny, according to the conventional colonial rules the colonial support points generated by Sudety isn't enough for all those colonial regions in D'Runia. One of those territories, 5020 on the very western tip of continent, is quite expensive in terms of points (equal to the points required for the rest combined). If these rules still stand my advice would be to discard 5020 and keep the rest, as that reflects the points Sudety has. Alternatively, keep 5020 and discard the rest.

As for the languages, it's true that the languages map has changed since you originally created Sudety. I understand why you would want to keep Czech, however I think given the large overhauls to the languages and the positioning of Slavic languages in southern Anaria-Minor, it would be good to go for a Germanic language. I actually really like the idea of using Afrikaans - it sort of makes sense given Nestor is an island and would have major linguistic differences to the languages of Stoldavia. A cool linguistic addition to Anaria if everyone agrees.

Now for the interesting bits - the culture, history and politics of Sudety. I like your idea that Sudety would act like the Switzerland of Gotha, providing a (relatively) safe place for monarchs and great nations to store their money. I also really like the idea that Sudety could act as an intermediary for trade between Haeverist and capitalist states. That would be a nice geopolitical niche for a small, but wealthy, country like Sudety to occupy.

Your concept also fits if you want Sudety to be neutral during the PAW. Again, being a small country on an island would make it less of a target (potentially) than a mainland Anarian power - and many countries would want to borrow as much money as they physically could to pay for the 50-year conflict. So it makes sense. Talking of which, I came up with an international banking family, the Pontecorvo family, that operates across Anaria - and are inspired by the real world Rothschild family. They were heavily involved in financing wars and such throughout recent Anarian history - perhaps some cool storylines and interaction could happen between the family and Sudety?

As for the religion, what branch of Orkanan do you see Sudety following? You mention that Stellist-Orkanan was a major motivation behind what I assume is the Sudetan Revolution (the end of the monarchy) - so I assume a different form of Orkanan would be followed in that country?

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11-03-2019, 10:28 PM
Post: #3
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
Hello Jerry, I'm James, I joined Gotha back in 2017 and my primary player nation is Kamura. Pleased to have another player back in the community, especially one of the Old Guard! Welcome Back!

For the language of you're country I think you could still conceivably use Czech since the Slavs in Gotha could've achieved sea access up there or been transported. Depends really on how far back in history Sudety goes. Otherwise Afrikaans is fine by the new standard. To be fair the new map wasn't approved by all of us so we use a hybrid system based alongside the old map... Your nation would reasonably share some ties with Central Stoldavia in this case as that is where Dutch is found.

My solution to the 5020 problem is to expand Sudety on Nestor is that's sufficient. I don't how likely another player is to take the reminder of Nestor.

I'm hopeful that considering where Nestor is, it's interactions with Kamura will proceed with relative ease. Due to you're policies on trade and banking you're markets will be easy for Kamuran merchants to access and aid in them accessing Anaria. Kamura though wants to establish an Emporium in Istania which is on it's knees after losing it's colonies to Auresia. Sudety could provide some helpful assistance in setting this up. It might also be wary of Auresia eyeing up it's own colonies...

We've seen an uptick in activity lately since Edgard joined us and set up Varennes and you coming back will likely continue this heightened activity. Hope to see more of you're contributions on the project!

By Keija's Hand! Kamura Shapes the World!
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11-04-2019, 07:27 PM
Post: #4
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
Thanks for the welcome, Alex and James!

(11-03-2019 08:38 PM)August Dux Wrote:  ...
I actually really like the idea of using Afrikaans - it sort of makes sense given Nestor is an island and would have major linguistic differences to the languages of Stoldavia. A cool linguistic addition to Anaria if everyone agrees.
...
I came up with an international banking family, the Pontecorvo family, that operates across Anaria - and are inspired by the real world Rothschild family. They were heavily involved in financing wars and such throughout recent Anarian history - perhaps some cool storylines and interaction could happen between the family and Sudety?
...
As for the religion, what branch of Orkanan do you see Sudety following? You mention that Stellist-Orkanan was a major motivation behind what I assume is the Sudetan Revolution (the end of the monarchy) - so I assume a different form of Orkanan would be followed in that country?

I am leaning toward Afrikaans myself, just because it's different, though Czech was easier for coming up with names, places, and such. James, I appreciate your support for Czech and I'd be happy to keep it, but it may make more sense to go Germanic.

Ran across the Pontecorvo page after I posted my reboot concept. Sudety will be protectionist for its banking and trade houses, so foreign banks won't be allowed. That said, Sudetan banks won't have the wealth of the Pontecorvos and there is no doubt there will be some serious competition and a lot of collaboration and conspiring, especially with the private banking houses.

Mellanhand Oraknan is the dominant religion in Sudety, though there will be some Stellists, particularly along the northern coastal areas. While technically permissible, it's not likely non Orkanan faiths will be very public or widespread as they'd be viewed suspiciously. Sudety tends to be pretty traditionalist in a religious sense. That's one of the reasons Stellism caused such concern when it started to gain followers within the nobility. Vind's Master Plan (aka predetermination) are a big part of Orkanan in Sudet.

(11-03-2019 08:38 PM)August Dux Wrote:  ...
As for the colony of Sudruny, according to the conventional colonial rules the colonial support points generated by Sudety isn't enough for all those colonial regions in D'Runia. One of those territories, 5020 on the very western tip of continent, is quite expensive in terms of points (equal to the points required for the rest combined). If these rules still stand my advice would be to discard 5020 and keep the rest, as that reflects the points Sudety has. Alternatively, keep 5020 and discard the rest.
...
(11-03-2019 10:28 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  ...
My solution to the 5020 problem is to expand Sudety on Nestor is that's sufficient. I don't how likely another player is to take the reminder of Nestor.
...

Considering shrinking the Sudruny colony, keeping 5020 makes sense from a geographic perspective since it's at the western tip of D'Runia. From a resource perspective, it's also a better fit for Sudety. Keeping the other territories with 5020 left out just seems a little odd because it's like a chunk is missing.

When I was considering adding a territory to the original Sudety, I looked at 1104, which makes sense geographically. From a resource perspective, though, it adds to the national deficit in iron, copper, bauxite, lumber/paper (we need paper for banking and recordkeeping!), fiber, and, most significantly, energy. It would, however, resolve the food shortage problem. Perhaps it makes sense to include 1104 from the perspective of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but I'd want to also keep the addition of 1103 to offset some of those resource constraints. It would allow the Sudruny colony to retain all territories.

If Sudety included all of Nester Major, it would cover 8 territories, giving it a comparable geographic size with some of the major powers. That may be feasible since it's not as developed and if Sudety covered all of Nester Major, the paper shortage would be 5 times that of the Sudety territories in the original post. Other shortages would be: energy 5x, fiber 7x, rubber 3x, stone 2x. There would be a substantial food surplus, however. Sudety covering Nester Major does have the advantage of the entire coastline for trading purposes, enhances defensibility since there won't be land borders to defend once the Sudetan confederation comes into being, and avoids historical gaps since there won't be a missing southern neighbor. And, as you said, James, there's not a high demand for Nesteran territories.

I kind of want to keep Sudety relatively small. So, I think I'd like to stay with the original Sudety proposal and slim the Sudruny colony down to just 5020. I would like to hear other thoughts, though, in case I'm missing a perspective that's better for game play or might make more sense for the lore.

(11-03-2019 10:28 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  ...
I'm hopeful that considering where Nestor is, it's interactions with Kamura will proceed with relative ease. Due to you're policies on trade and banking you're markets will be easy for Kamuran merchants to access and aid in them accessing Anaria. Kamura though wants to establish an Emporium in Istania which is on it's knees after losing it's colonies to Auresia. Sudety could provide some helpful assistance in setting this up. It might also be wary of Auresia eyeing up it's own colonies...


We can most definitely work on some trading ideas. I'd like to see Sudety as kind of a gateway to Anaria from the east as kind of a natural place for everyone to stop at and cut their deals with the trading houses facilitating deals and banks helping with funding/money exchange. Perhaps Sudetan trading houses might be a place where goods can be traded without colonial items having to go to the homeland before fanning back out to other Anarian countries. Maybe some type of franchise deal?

Just as Kamuran merchants could improve trade with Anaria through Sudety, I'd also like Sudetan commodities to be able to find their way to Kamura.

Jerry
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11-05-2019, 04:26 AM
Post: #5
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
Jerry! Is that you? Welcome back, my friend! It’s great to see you again! I’ll look the thread over in more detail when I’m not on my tablet, and can better type out replies, haha.
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11-05-2019, 02:14 PM
Post: #6
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
Welcome back! I am a new guy, happy to work with you if there's a chance!
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11-05-2019, 03:26 PM
Post: #7
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
(11-05-2019 04:26 AM)Morbius Wrote:  Jerry! Is that you? Welcome back, my friend! It’s great to see you again! I’ll look the thread over in more detail when I’m not on my tablet, and can better type out replies, haha.

Hi, Tom. Thanks! Good to see you too. Looking forward to your thoughts.

(11-05-2019 02:14 PM)Edgard Wrote:  Welcome back! I am a new guy, happy to work with you if there's a chance!

Welcome to you, as well, Edgard. It looks like you've got some good ideas and I'm sure we'll have a chance to collaborate. I know you're still working on the concept, but I'm sure Varennes and Sudety have long-standing trade to some degree and probably some noble marriages, even if minor nobles. And, since I'm freshly back, I'm also a new guy. Wink

Jerry
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11-06-2019, 06:39 PM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2019 06:49 PM by jph2.)
Post: #8
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
I've done some work on developing Sudety's history to both fit it into existing Gothan lore and rationalize the current Sudetan structure.

Copper Age—200-1500

Hunter-gatherer tribes; tribes somewhat nomadic

Iron Age—2900-4100
Ancient Colonial Era—4100-5200

3050s-4500s: Civ 3—Cheltai; Cheltic Isles (modern day Amberia). Trade and influence to northwestern Nester

4520s: beginnings of defensive coordinations among tribes in 1098, 1099 to fend of Wolgos slavers; beginnings of division of labor; clearing of forests for agriculture and defense

Orkanan Realm

5200s: expansion of Orkanan Realm into Nester; further development of regional alliances for defense, trade; hill forts/ring forts; introduction of Fyrirhugun Orkanan; watermills (5850), windmills (5200)

5300s: adoption of nobility concept from OR; barons control fortified towns and surrounding areas

5400s: development of "counties" to group towns and rural areas under a single noble; roughly analogous to modern districts

5500s: expansion of nobility with counties reclassed as viscounties grouped under a count; roughly analogous to modern provinces

Migration Period—5600s-5700s

Some influence but most migrations largely skipped Nester; expansion of nobility to group counties into marches for better collective defense

Trade grows during the era of the Dragger Monopoly, especially in north-northwestern marches

Duchy of Sudety—5804-7184

Post Orikanan Realm, Wolgos again began looking for slaves in Nester

5804—Marches confederate into Duchy to enhance defense as well as further develop economy and trade

6050—Rise of mercantilism leads to founding of first trade houses

6056—First bank founded by Kobus Jansing

7000s—Mellenhand Orkanan subsumes Fyrirhugun Orkanan in Sudety

7100s—Some nobles become believers in Stellist Orkanan; most people believe Stellism is heretical in depriving man of his humanity (Raßerne)

7151-7156 Stoldavic Civil War raises tensions in Sudety over Stellism; this continues to be a societal undercurrent for the next couple decades

7180s—Localized uprisings over Stellism and the growing divide between haves and have-nots

7182—National Unity Party formed, threatening the power of the nobility and stability of society due to it becoming a potential for coordinated dissent, uprisings, and possible insurrection; bankers are aghast at this threat to their centuries-old business

Republic of Sudety

7184—Banker Jodocus Jansing solicits military backing (which the military is willing to provide because they know where the money is), deposes Hertog (Duke) Filip III. Jansing establishes himself as the first Autokrat. The rest of the nobility is replaced in ruling positions, which most willingly accept in order to keep their personal wealth and avoid imprisonment or death; they're told it's necessary to avoid an all-out civil war, which would leave Sudety in ruins and their fortunes destroyed; State Protection Service formed to quell popular unrest and control the masses

7185—Autokrat becomes Prelate for Unified Congregations of Sudety; elections for the parliamentary State Assembly, which has only limited authority

7229—Sudet D’Runia colony established to address resource shortfalls and distract the populace

7300s—Increased trade with the industrial revolution in major Anarian countries

7400s—With growing conflicts among major powers, some Sudetan trading houses begin dealings in arms and other commodities with both/multiple sides in the conflicts; some private banks subsequently begin lending money to any and all participants; Theofilus Aldenkamp Privaatbank is suspected of converting war spoils into untraceable precious metals during the Tandem Wars but this cannot be verified due to banking secrecy laws

7500s—Continued banking and trade with all sides in the Pan-Anarian War keeps Sudety out of the fighting but not without some criticism and diplomatic conflict; Seehek (Sudety’s capital) becomes a nest of spies from all sides; Sudetan trade houses begin profiting off trade between tariffed and non-tariffed nations due to the Straits Protocols/Cartel and as a work-around of the Anisoran flags of convenience for non-Vittmark countries
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11-07-2019, 08:12 PM
Post: #9
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
Nice job of integrating Sudetan history into the established lore. Although being an island off the coast of Anaria and away from the mucky intertwined history of the continent, Sudety has some nice options for interaction throughout its history.

jph2 Wrote:Sudetan trade houses begin profiting off trade between tariffed and non-tariffed nations due to the Straits Protocols/Cartel and as a work-around of the Anisoran flags of convenience for non-Vittmark countries.

In terms of the most recent piece of history, I have some questions: How did the Sudetan government and banks respond to the Straits Cartel? You say they profited off the trade between tariffed and non-tariffed states, how do you mean?

Also, what do you mean when you say Sudety acted as a work-around for the flag of convenience policy? Just interested in this as obviously it affects the most recent geopolitical event to upset Anarian diplomacy.

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11-07-2019, 09:47 PM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2019 10:35 PM by jph2.)
Post: #10
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
(11-07-2019 08:12 PM)August Dux Wrote:  Nice job of integrating Sudetan history into the established lore.

Thanks! Smile

(11-07-2019 08:12 PM)August Dux Wrote:  How did the Sudetan government and banks respond to the Straits Cartel? You say they profited off the trade between tariffed and non-tariffed states, how do you mean?

Also, what do you mean when you say Sudety acted as a work-around for the flag of convenience policy? Just interested in this as obviously it affects the most recent geopolitical event to upset Anarian diplomacy.

The Sudetan government would claim to maintain its neutrality but would take some exception to the Protocols/Cartel as interfering with free trade. I envision, however, central Anarian powers'-flagged vessels coming to Sudety more than the other way around, so it's less of an issue for Sudety.

Banks won't have an issue since the Straits issue doesn't really affect money. In fact, Sudetan banks may appreciate it if vessels needing to pay tariffs need to borrow money, even if short-term, to meet those obligations.

My concept for the brokerage houses includes some that are willing to facilitate shady deals, perhaps even for prohibited items. In this regard, I suspect there are vessels flagged by countries that don't have to pay the Straits tariffs that might be willing, for the right price, to transport cargo for companies/people who would otherwise have to pay the tariffs. Some brokerage houses would help make these connections and cross-load the cargo, taking their cut as well. Thus, country Y, who would have to pay the tariff, can get a ship from Country A (maybe even from Vittmark, with a flag of convenience?), that is part of the Cartel and not subject to tariff, to haul the cargo, facilitated for a price by Shady & Co. Brokers in Sudet. And so, country Y can avoid the tariff in this case, not unlike a Vittmarkan vessel with an Anisoran flag of convenience.

I hope that makes a little more sense. Sudetan banks will hold money for anyone and lend money for anything, not questions asked. Similarly, some Sudetan trade brokerages have no scruples about what deals they make. Most trade brokerages, though, just help with trade deals between Anaria and other parts of the world since Sudety sort of sits at the crossroads between north and south and east and west.


Refined Territorial Concept

After some thought and consideration, I’ve refined the territorial concept for Sudety and the Sudet D’Runia (Sudruny) colony. I think this makes the most sense geographically and to fit the country's concept.

Sudety: 1098, 1099 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104.
[Image: gjIzBBh.png]
Rationale: 1104 is the most developed and most populated on Nester, so it would likely be the seat of the federation (duchy) when it came into existence. It can also feed the rest of the Sudet federation. With a shortage of energy, yet being industrialized 1104 is also the most likely to be desirous of colonies.

1098, 1099 1101, and 1102 were part of the original Sudety. They’re also the closest to Stoldovia and the most likely to face Wolgos slavers. Adding 1103 mitigates some of the resource shortfalls that result from including 1104. And, without 1103, there wouldn’t be so much concern in 1104 about the Wolgos invaders since they can't really come through 1102 because of the mountains.

As proposed, Sudety has a population of 29,465,000, a good number to make it defensible but not so large it threatens the central Anarian powers, especially considering its development level. Resource-wise, it’s in pretty good shape, but has shortfalls that would necessitate trade.

Adding the rest of Nester Major would make Sudety too populous and not substantially help from a resources perspective. Southeastern Nester Major (1100, 1105, 1106) has sufficient population and resources to be viable for a future player, especially if Nester Minor (1107, 1108) were to be part of that country.

Sudet D’Runia: 5020, 5021, 5022, 5028
[Image: o6Morsc.png]
Rationale: Those territories are the first Sudety would encounter on the western D’Runian peninsula. It makes sense Sudety would claim them to the mountain ridges, but it makes less sense a non-major power like Sudety would claim all the way across the peninsula to include 5029, 5030, and 5031. The revised colonial proposal helps address some of Sudety’s resource shortfalls yet also places some resource demands on the homeland.

With the peninsula’s central mountain range, it just makes more sense to me. The Sudetans wouldn’t want to reach the same mountain tops from two different sides, especially since no one found that much ore southeast of the mountains.
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