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[proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
12-15-2019, 07:41 AM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2020 12:23 PM by PeaceBone.)
Post: #1
[proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
(12-13-2019 06:09 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  That's absolutely fine, I welcome you're interest in the region. It's clearly somewhere on the map that needs a lot of attention and we need a clear definable idea of what Yan (if it keeps that name) is. Outside Anaria, West Davai is probably the best place to start developing the rest of the map!

You can work on a new concept for the nation from ground up if you like. The only aspect I would like input on is the shared ancient historical migrations of West Davai. I think I clarified the sequence of those events on the Yan page and the Sriaav and Samzayid ethnic pages.

Well then, here goes!

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Unity of Great Yän - aka the Great Yannic Confederation
大殷團盟 | 땨얜튠망 | Da Yan Twan Meng

Yan is a state in Davai mainly situated within its eponymous basin, though has expanded beyond it during the industrial revolution. A former hereditary clan-based monarchy, Yan shifted into its present state after a social crisis, and eventual revolution by its intelligentsia class, known as the "Gungshr" (宮士). Today, the new government is forming a resolute (and perhaps an increasingly nationalistic) path towards becoming its own power in Davai. Its people, the Yanmin (殷民), a subset of the greater Wenish family, is itself a fairly diversified culture spanning from the Hui coast to the country's eastern fringes. The "high culture" of the national capital Yan Yip and its surrounding Core States (央邑, Yangyi) define the national culture. The country is currently guided by a scholasticist ideology which unites Kamuran/Anarian scientism, ancient Yannic philosophy, and Shuocian cosmology called the School of Astute Harmony (叡和道 Rweihedau), also known as Haiwoism.

A government divided between the scholarly bureaucracy of its capital, Yan Yip, and the metropolitan governments of the clans (閥州, Fajou lit. "clan-polities"), Yan is a balancing act of a newly-enthroned government as it develops technologically and revitalizes its ancient traditions. The government in Yan Yip, also known as the Wise and Ordered Chancellery (文規省 Wen'gweishen) or simply the Chancellery, handles full administrative power over the Core States, while the Peripheries (周圍 Jouwei) have considerable autonomy from the Department, its reach in the peripheries mostly defined by offices of oversight and predominance of the mechanized New Army over the local militia (州軍 Joujyun).

The Chancellery is strictly technocratic in character, with a position in the civil service bureaucracy being the main factor to participation in government. Yannic (and perhaps in some extent, Xiang) governance, after all, is defined not by political power, but by the administration of society--the natural order is paramount. The Chancellery is the paramount organ of state in Yan, in which all clans and governments are subservient upon--a holdover of the preceding monarchical rule under the Ba (霸, lit. "sovereign"). Yan has no legislature at the national level, its closest being the Great Congresses (大會, Dahwei)--consisting of the Council of Chiefs (圍會 Waihwei), the Council of Tribes (家會 Jiahwei) and the Council of the Brilliant (祭會 Jihwei)--bodies which serve only an advisory and deliberative role representative of the clans, sectors of society, and priestly orders respectively. The Great Chancellor (首相 Shousyang), also known as the First Sage (元哲 Ywanje) is the paramount leader of the Chancellery, and in turn the country's head of state.

While not having a strong prescence in the Shangti (its coastal territories seceding during the Wise Marshal Revolution), it maintains control over land trade, effectively monopolizing the direct flow of goods from Arsas and the Phasian Ocean (with the exception of Ithrieni exports), alongside with its own massive food production industry. Yan's ambitions towards an expansion beyond the Hui coast is frustrated by the thalassocratic power over the Sensumi seas by its rival Kamura. Currently, Yan is trying to project power over the southern Xiang regions, with some factions of the Chancellery hoping to use them for an alternate access to the Shangti.
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Some historical proposals for West Davai proper
  • The Yan-Xiang (and to a lesser extent, the wider Xi/Sino-Tibetan family) would have a shared origin civilization that defines largely their language and common culture. There are two phases into this: the Rung (容) which spanned from the 2nd-4th Millenium RH; and the more influential Wen (雯), which established a more organized government until its collapse in circa 4850-4900. The high cultures of these two empires are defined by a nomadic herder lifestyle and shamanism (cf. Shuocianism). While both have imperial positions, only the Wen referred to their ruler as 帝, Dai.
  • The collapse of the Wenish civilization is precipitated by its decentralized structure and growing regional divides among the Wenish ruling class (the Han , 汗). The Yan would have branched off from the Wen in the late 4th millenium, and would settle in the Yan basin in the early 5th, forming the Jeoi confederacy, the first Yannic polity.
  • The Rung culture is not homogenous--it has ruled over earlier non-Xi speaking cultures. Most of these early cultures were related to the Yaemic, Proto-Ameratsu and Samzayid peoples (especially in the coast), mainly agricultural or fishing-based peoples. By the late Wen, various Wenish peoples in the Chengshi lands and later to the Xiang region would intermix and eventually become sedentary, becoming the Xiangren.

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Here are some of my ideas so far, based around the disparate information between the ethnic groups and the article for Yan. This was kind of a struggle on trying to keep the aesthetic of the original concept while bringing in something novel to the nation.

I also have some idea for the Hui coast, though I haven't thought of anything yet other than their language is related to the vernacular of Yan Yip (which i believe is Yue/Cantonese?), and it is a Kamuran buffer against Yannic influence. Any thoughts?

I'm going to try fleshing out Haiwoism in a later post as well, so watch out for that!
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12-15-2019, 03:39 PM
Post: #2
RE: [proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
This is a great start! I see you've preserved much of the prior content but have certainly innovated on that. I'll want for more to be revealed about that as you define you're ideology. Would this Yan be influenced by Haverism?

On the character of the Hui region, I think it could lean towards Cantonese, bear in mind I think its inferred that the Xiangren cultural sphere is meant to be akin to South China while the Yan Basin is the Mandarin heartland.

Due to Hui being lodged right between out spheres of influence, I do think we should define its lore. An aligned splinter state serves Kamuran interests critically. The less sea access Yan has the better. Sorry but it's the truth. That whole region, which includes room for a whole other player nation based in Xian is ripe for geopolitical tension and intrigue though...

I'm happy that this proposal represents Yan no longer being a void! You can bring it to life!

By Keija's Hand! Kamura Shapes the World!
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12-15-2019, 08:43 PM
Post: #3
RE: [proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
Hey PeaceBone and welcome to Gotha!

Great to see you already have a nice outline proposal for Yan. It will be great to see some more development in that region as it will undoubtedly be a major geopolitical point of interest - for both regional powers as well as Anarian nations. I know there are Anisoran interests in the region - particularly in facilitating trade from Arsas to Yan and back again. And with Kamura your nearest neighbour, there will be lots of intrigues I'm sure.

I like what you have so far - particularly the complex bureaucracy you've outlined. So many different bodies and councils! I like complicated systems; they're always fun to worldbuild and interact with. How do you see the confederated states interacting with one another? Is it a cohesive confederation, or is it largely unstable?

PeaceBone Wrote:The country is currently guided by a scholasticist ideology which unites Kamuran/Anarian scientism, ancient Yannic philosophy, and Shuocian cosmology called the School of Astute Harmony (叡和道 Hai Wo Dou), also known as Haiwoism.

This sounds really fascinating - I'm very keen on hearing more about this as you develop your concept. The melding of Anarian/Kamuran scientism with native ideology/theology will be a really nice addition to Gotha's ideologies.

As clear above, James (TeamBattleaxe) is our resident Davai expert so he'll be able to help work out the specific details and nuances of the region. Great start, and I look forward to seeing how this concept develops!

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12-16-2019, 02:55 AM
Post: #4
RE: [proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
Looks great!

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12-16-2019, 08:35 PM
Post: #5
RE: [proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
Yup, thumbs up from this side as well. I'm probably will not be much of a sparring partner for this development, but will be following it with interest!

VITTMARK:"This mess is a place." --- FISKS:"Fisk you!"
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12-17-2019, 01:19 PM
Post: #6
RE: [proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
Glad to see some positive response!

(12-15-2019 03:39 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  This is a great start! I see you've preserved much of the prior content but have certainly innovated on that. I'll want for more to be revealed about that as you define you're ideology. Would this Yan be influenced by Haverism?

I'm mostly conjecturing on the article about the Yan New Army being trained by Helreich (pre-Haverist, I believe?), so the Haiwoist government would definitely be somewhat aligned with the weird revolutionary ideas happening in Stoldavia, with all their Stellist-Orkanan posturing.

Geopolitics would get in the way of course, especially since Haverism doesn't have much to do with how Haiwoism developed--it's not Maoism coming off of Leninism, they're more parallel situations.

(12-15-2019 03:39 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  On the character of the Hui region, I think it could lean towards Cantonese, bear in mind I think its inferred that the Xiangren cultural sphere is meant to be akin to South China while the Yan Basin is the Mandarin heartland.

I think it would be an interesting spin if we reverse the scenario on this one, with the Southern Chinese languages being akin to the Turkic languages for northern Davai, while the Mandarin dialects form a more homogeneous area in the southern regions.

(12-15-2019 08:43 PM)August Dux Wrote:  I like what you have so far - particularly the complex bureaucracy you've outlined. So many different bodies and councils! I like complicated systems; they're always fun to worldbuild and interact with. How do you see the confederated states interacting with one another? Is it a cohesive confederation, or is it largely unstable?

It's largely cohesive due to a bunch of factors, such as the pervading memory of the civil war during the Revolution, the ongoing message of a unified national identity, and the prevailing influence of the Chancellery over rural clans politically (clan corruption) and militarily (the New Army). Over that, the Clans have varying relations between one another, with the ones closest to the center being very cohesive (urbanism, closer relations with the Chancellery), with the farthest being more of a peacekeeping job for the New Army. In some states, the Army established itself as the supreme authority just to secure the borders, though some also established a special relationship with them especially the ones closest to the land/air trade routes.

(12-15-2019 08:43 PM)August Dux Wrote:  
PeaceBone Wrote:The country is currently guided by a scholasticist ideology which unites Kamuran/Anarian scientism, ancient Yannic philosophy, and Shuocian cosmology called the School of Astute Harmony (叡和道 Hai Wo Dou), also known as Haiwoism.

This sounds really fascinating - I'm very keen on hearing more about this as you develop your concept. The melding of Anarian/Kamuran scientism with native ideology/theology will be a really nice addition to Gotha's ideologies.
I still haven't have time to write it down, though much of it would imply my ideas for expanding on Yannic Shuocianism as well. Hope I get to that!
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12-17-2019, 08:12 PM
Post: #7
RE: [proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
I don't have a ton of time to respond to this right now but on you're point about language distribution, I would like Cantonese and South Chinese to have a coastal range at least in Maritime Davai. Xian could be Cantonese or one of the many other language and culture groups of South China. Inland though I'm less concerned with the distribution, maybe it's patchy. I'd generally think that any Turkic language group should be adjacent to the Mandarin sphere since in the RW Mandarin will have more Turkic influence...

By Keija's Hand! Kamura Shapes the World!
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01-07-2020, 06:30 AM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2020 12:20 PM by PeaceBone.)
Post: #8
RE: [proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
On Haiwoism

Haiwoism (叡和道 Haai Wo Dou, a Xiang calque of Rweihedau) is a fairly recent school of thought within Yan (and the wider Western Davaian continent proper). A modernist ideology, Haiwoism found the full backing of the educate scholar-gentry class as a response to the rising threats to Yannic sovereignty, both internally and externally.

In the historical narrative of the Haiwoists, the inherent threat to Yannic glory wasn't the Anarian Powers, the dominating Ithrieni, the expansive Arsas and the ascendant Kamuraav--these are societies that can be bypassed, triumphed over. The problem lies somewhere inherent in almost every civilization: vestigialities.

Haiwoism espouses a utilitarian worldview, with which the goal is enriching and transforming society to the ideal "national character" (國體, Gwoti). Well aware of the problems that arose with the Pan-Anarian War (most specifically the fall of Hellish and Amberian monarchies), Haiwoists thus concluded that such "vestigial" institutions--monarchy, nobility, feudalism--are impotent systems more detrimental than beneficial to the national character. As the world-system changes (ie. the prevailing affairs between civilizations), so should the national character. The Yan of before was led by kings, warlords, wolf-riders. Their continued reign must perish if the national character was to be improved.

What should be the alternative, then?

The prevailing belief among the scholar-gentry was one of intellectual classism. Absolute meritocrats, the rising scholarly movements were mostly centered on how to propagate order through a hierarchy of knowledges. The old sages wrote: "The peasant venerates his teacher, the teacher venerates his wise superior, and the wise one venerates the nation*." In this context, the Scholar-Gentry concluded thus that they, not the hereditary nobility, are more fit to rule and take care of this national character.

In this sense, the Haiwoists are technocratic. Only those who pass the dreadful-but-prestigious state examinations are allowed to participate in government. These "wise men" of "astute" character are, by their deeds and knowledge, philosopher-bureaucrats who use the parameters of reason and classical wisdom to enact harmony within the national character. Sustaining and improving the nation's harmonic order is as paramount as guiding it: like in the sciences, it is believed that established models of reality and the knowledges that coincide with it change with every new iteration. Thus, the national character must adjust accordingly to the times.

Technological advancement, social change, infrastructure, education, improvement of life, these are all the components in which the national character is made "astute". Despite these overtures to modernity, Haiwoists do not consider Haverist-like progressivism as the whole. Traditions are denounced and exalted based on their value to the national character. Through this, an astute national identity is maintained, distinguished and above the imperialistic notions that plague its potential opponents.

For better or worse, Haiwoism is a distinctly Davaian Modernism.

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*that is, Society. The monarchist interpretation of thus as the Dai was largely discarded by the revolt in Yanyi.
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01-10-2020, 02:39 AM
Post: #9
RE: [proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
An impressive proposal. I like it!
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01-10-2020, 05:19 PM
Post: #10
RE: [proposal] Unity of Great Yän (and some thoughts for Davai)
Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner! I like this fleshing out of Haai Wo Dou very much, it already gives me a flavour of what the political landscape and aesthetic of the Yan Basin will become. So you will portray Yan as a post-revolutionary state that has repealed it monarchy and placed a scholarly class in power? Seems to me like if in RW China, the Bureaucratic factions of the Imperial Administration overthrew the monarchy. I'll be interested to know more detail about what the form of government will be!

Also don't forget to post a map and flag on here of your proposed Yan.

As a side note, you might as well refer to Kamura and Kamurans as just that. I'm altering the language so it doesn't have the 'av' sounds anymore. It'll be a lot more akin to Ainu where possible.

By Keija's Hand! Kamura Shapes the World!
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